KIRWIN/McDonough nee Lacey/LOOK UP

[MaryA]

Duh! isn't it obvious now you say that

[dickiesam]

Duh! isn't it obvious now you say that

When Irish eyes are... looking!

[MaryA]

[gwenjus]

Good Morning from Oz. Thanks again for your interest in my search. Is anyone able to find the details, maybe on ancestry, of a marriage for Mary McDonough , nee Lacey, widow and Dennis Kirwin 1864 , 4th Quarter Vol 8B Page 510.
From LRO, Mary dau of Roger and Helena Lacy m Edward son of William McDonough, 6/6/1858 @ St Anthony's Chapeo, Scotland Rd Liverpool. Witnesses were James McCue and Eliz Whaley.
It is interesting that on the 1861 census Ellen Lacey had boarders Mary & James Mc Cue, both b in Ire, is this the same 'James" who wasthe witness to yhe marriage?
Further backgroung I have to these Laceys from IFHF:-
Roger "Leecey", Rel. RC. of Rathdrum Ire m Eleonor Graham dau Geo Graham and Sarah nee Kenevan @ Killavaney, Co Wicklow, 20/6/1831.
And Baptism, 30/11/1811 for Eleonot Graham @ Killavaney, Co Wicklow. Cheers, Gwen

[moya]

Have got the marriage for Kirwan/ McDonough 1864. How do I upload copy ? Moya

[MaryA]

Directions to upload a photograph here
http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... =16&t=9817

[dickiesam]

For background and where it is.... Killavaney, Co Wicklow

http://www.yelp.ie/biz/killaveney-parish-arklow

[allanpshepherd123]

Hello to Gwen

Thank you for the link to Finnan nee Lacey. My wife Lynette (nee Finnan) is the youngest daughter and child of William Gerard Finnan born 1909 who married Hilda Primrose Finnan (nee Johnson/Johnston?) born 1910 who's father John Johnson/Johnston? was we believe born in Ireland circa 1869 but we cannot find any record of his birth since we do not know where in Ireland he was born. John Johnson married a Phoebe Colyer in 1890 in Liverpool. John's father was Ephraim Johnson but we are not aware as to his mothers name.

Jane Finnan (nee Lacey) was born 23/08/1870 to John and Margaret Lacey (nee Renshall or Henshall) in the sub district of Saint Martin in the County of Lancaster. She married John Finnan 10/11/1895 in Liverpool.

Not sure yet who the Suzanne Hershey (nee Finnan) of Minnesota is but we will come back later. She might be related to William Gerard Finnan's brother John Leo Finnan born 1903 who moved to America as a young man.

If anyone can shine a greater light on either Finnan/Johnson or Lacey it would help us piece together some missing links so to speak.

Best Regards
Allan

[dickiesam]

Hello Allan,
Unless you have evidence to the contrary I would believe from the 1881 census that it was John Johnson's father who was born in Ireland, not John himself.
This is the 1881:
JOHNSON, Ephraim - Head - 64 - 1817 - General Labourer - Ireland.
JOHNSON, Jane - Wife - 59 - 1822 - Ireland.
JOHNSON, Margaret - Dtr - u/m - 31 - 1850 - Liverpool.
JOHNSON, John - Son - 11 - 1870 - Scholar - Liverpool.
Address: 16 Gaskell St, Toxteth Park, Liverpool.
RG11 - Piece: 3641 - Folio: 64 - Page: 62

However, the previous census in 1871 throws a slightly different light on the situation. John the son bn abt 1870, is now actually the grandson. Perhaps Margaret was his mother? It was not uncommon for a grandchild to be raised as having been born to its g.parents and believing they were his biological parents. Still happens today. And it appears that Ephraim did have a son John bn Ireland abt 1843.

1871:
JOHNSON, Ephraim - Head - 36 - 1815 - Ireland. [His age has been entered incorrectly. Should be 56]
JOHNSON, Jane - Wife - 50 - 1821 - Ireland
JOHNSON, John - Son - 28 - 1843 - Ireland
JOHNSON, Margaret - Dtr - 21 - 1850 - Lancashire
JOHNSON, Charles - Son - 19 - 1852 - Lancashire
JOHNSON, Elizabeth - Dtr - 14 - 1857 - Lancashire
JOHNSON, John - Grandson - 1 - 1870 - Lancashire
Address: 22 Robertson Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool.
RG10 - Piece: 3798 - Folio: 99 - Page: 44

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Nice to make connections.

Ephraim is an unusual name, thought I'd do a quick look for any baptisms of children born to him and found one, could it be your couple? it would give a led to Jane's name
St Patrick
Born 28 March, baptised 12 November 1849 (private and conditionate) Sarah Ann Johnson
Ephraim Johnson & Jane Laverty Godmother Mary Purcell

It's the only one I find with the two parents names correct. What would you think? although it's way earlier than you might have expected them to be in Liverpool.

Surprisingly, there are other baptisms with father Ephraim, with mother Ann Lundy, they don't match any of those listed on the census however.

[dickiesam]

Some progress on the Johnson family Irish origins...

1901:
JOHNSON, Ephraim - Grandfather - Widower - 85 - 1816 - Retired general labourer - Belfast, Ireland.
Address: 303 Beaufort Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool.
RG13 - Piece: 3429 - Folio: 104 - Page: 11.

[dickiesam]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Nice to make connections.

Ephraim is an unusual name, thought I'd do a quick look for any baptisms of children born to him and found one, could it be your couple? it would give a led to Jane's name
St Patrick
Born 28 March, baptised 12 November 1849 (private and conditionate) Sarah Ann Johnson
Ephraim Johnson & Jane Laverty Godmother Mary Purcell

It's the only one I find with the two parents names correct. What would you think? although it's way earlier than you might have expected them to be in Liverpool.

Surprisingly, there are other baptisms with father Ephraim, with mother Ann Lundy, they don't match any of those listed on the census however.

One of those sad finds we come across....

Birth: JOHNSON, Sarah Ann
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1849 / Jun qtr
Volume no: 20; Page no: 1114.

Death: JOHNSON, Sarah Ann
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1849 / Dec qtr
Volume no: 20; Page no: 778.

The 'private and conditionate' baptism and death shortly after makes me think the parents knew the infant was about to die.

[MaryA]

Some progress on the Johnson family Irish origins...
JOHNSON, Ephraim - Grandfather - Widower - 85 - 1816 - Retired general labourer - Belfast, Ireland.

Oh great! a place of birth, not often we come across one of those, a big help.

Yes, the baptism must have been done by perhaps a family member and registered with the church later.

But not sure why there are no others to the same parents.

[allanpshepherd123]

To dickiesam and MaryA, you are both stars.

Many thanks for you input regarding the Johnson tree.

We have the marraige certificate of John Johnson (rank or profession as rivetter) and Phoebe Colyer 10/08/1890 (died 1917 aged 44) giving John's age as 21 and their residence at the time as Beamish Street Liverpool so John was born 1869/1870. His fathers name is given as Ephriam Johnson labourer.

I think you may be right and the John Johnson above that we thought was Hilda Johnson's father is now John the grandson who became her father.

This information 1881 census "JOHNSON, John - Son - 11 - 1870 - Scholar - Liverpool" and 1871 census "JOHNSON, John - Grandson - 1 - 1870 - Lancashire" puts things into perspective.

Please correct me if I am wrong, to sum it up on the 1871 census for 22 Robertson Street Liverpool has Ephraim aged 56 having a son John aged 28 who in turn had a son (who became Hilda's father in 1910) aged 1. So when Hilda Johnson was born in 1910 her father John was now 39. So is the Ephriam Johnson on the marraige certificate of Hilda's parents actually Hilda's great grandfather and not her grandfather? Should John's father's name be John and fit in with you observation "It was not uncommon for a grandchild to be raised as having been born to its g.parents and believing they were his biological parents"?

Best Regards
Allan

[MaryA]

That's quite a muddle for me to get my head around but if we agree that Hilda's father John was brought up by "grandfather" Ephraim, but claimed him to be father on the marriage certificate, then yes he was Hilda's great grandfather, however, do we have proof that Joh (age 28 in 1871) is John's father? it could just as easily be Margaret who is his mother and an unknown for the father.

[dickiesam]

Hello Allan,
This is a situation where you definitely need to get the John [son/g.son bn abt 1869] birth cert to see who his parents were. Because he is in the household in 1871 and 1881 in the company of unmarried Margaret and not in 'his father's family' [perhaps that of the John born Ireland abt 1843] I do not think he is a child of John bn abt 1843. If he is Margaret's child, as I suspect he is, John bn 1843 will be his uncle.

However, if he is illegitimate, there is unlikely to be a father's name on the cert. Where the parents were not married the father's name could not be entered on the cert unless the father actually attended on the Registrar in person and 'admitted' fatherhood. And that would make him liable for support. Without a father's name it is impossible to trace the male line further back.

Because I have come across these situations before I believe the child was raised either believing his g.father was his father or that his father was a 'mystery man' who, according to family story, had abandoned his mother. Further, at marriage, if he was illegitimate he would have 'invented' a name for his father in order to avoid a 'blank space' and some embarrassment. And what better name than that of the head of the family that raised him. Most of us have come across invented fathers' names before, and it causes real problems when trying to trace family back.

Between 1869 March qtr and 1870 December qtr there were 5 John Johnson births registered in Liverpool. There are others but they all have a second forename.
Births Mar 1869:
Johnson, John - W. Derby - 8b - 327
Johnson, John - W. Derby - 8b - 437

Births Jun 1869:
Johnson, John - W. Derby - 8b - 434

Births Mar 1870:
Johnson, John - Liverpool - 8b - 174
Johnson, John - W. Derby - 8b - 338

The family were living in the Toxteth Park area when John was born and Toxteth was not a Registration District until 1881 so there's a choice between West Derby and Liverpool Districts. Because his birth year is consistent at 1870 I think he probably one of the 2 in the March qtr of that year. I stand to be corrected by folk here who are more knowledgeable as to district coverage but I think the Liverpool registration would be the one to go for.

Hope the above makes sense..

[MaryA]

Sorry to say that there isn't a baptism that jumps out at me - none for a single parent and very few for the Toxteth area.

[allanpshepherd123]

Thank you so much to all who have contributed so much valuable information, so much food for thought.

Thank you Gwen for starting us on this amazing journey into my wife Lynette's family history, looking forward to talking to you about the Finnan/Lacey side of her family.

In the meantime I will arrange to access "find my past" to obtain any other information from the GRO regarding John Johnson (son/grandson) born 1869 to see who his parents were. I will initially go for the John Johnson 1870 Liverpool-8b-174 and see where it takes us.

Will post later with further information.

Best Regards
Allan

[dickiesam]

Thank you so much to all who have contributed so much valuable information, so much food for thought.

Thank you Gwen for starting us on this amazing journey into my wife Lynette's family history, looking forward to talking to you about the Finnan/Lacey side of her family.

In the meantime I will arrange to access "find my past" to obtain any other information from the GRO regarding John Johnson (son/grandson) born 1869 to see who his parents were. I will initially go for the John Johnson 1870 Liverpool-8b-174 and see where it takes us.

Will post later with further information.

Best Regards
Allan

Hi,
You can buy a copy of that 1870 birth cert online direct from the GRO using the information already provided. Costs £9.25 incl post within the UK. http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp

It is generally advisable not to purchase BMD certs via genealogy websites. The cost of doing so can be well in excess of double the cost of buying direct from the GRO.

Unfortunately in this instance you will be unable to specify either of the parents because we don't know who they are yet. Good luck.

[allanpshepherd123]

Hello dickiesam

We have over the years used 1837 online before it changed and bought certificates direct from the GRO when researching my side of our family (Shepherd/Grice) and attempts of Lynette's on her mums side of Johnson/Colyer.

The help afforded so far has been amazing from everyone who has contributed so we are looking forward to going as far back as we can.

There was a story some years ago from Lynette's brother Cavan (mentioned before) that he had heard that the Johnson side of the family has Portuguese influences which have apparently came through into our youngest daughter Roisin. During our long time holidays in Portugal even the Portuguese thought she was Portuguese!!

Best Regards
Allan