McDonald (Joshua)

[GeirGG]

Hi,

I am trying to help my mother in law, to find out about her British relatives. Her Grandmother was from Liverpool, and was the daughter of the person I refer to as Joshua#3. If anybody can help me, that would be great!

What I have sort of found out so far (it might not be right, but I think it is) is as follows:

Joshua#1 and Hannah McDonald live in Dublin. They move to Manchester (before their last son is born: Thomas born 1859 in Manchester). George is in the military at the time of the 1861 census (we find him in Coventry).

They all move to Liverpool, and live in Dale street/Midghall street. Joshua#1 (the father) dies in 1865 (I have the certificate, and that shows Hannah as a widow in Liverpool). Some time after this Joshua #2 (his son) gets married to Sarah (around 1868 I would think), and George his brother, marries his wife Catherine Connell in 1865.
Joshua#2 and Sarah (don't know last name) has a son in 1869, and names him Joshua(#3), and George and Catherine has a son in December 1870, and names him Joshua (#4) (this certificate I do have).

Then I belive that Joshua#2 dies in 1880 (I have ordered this from GRO, so I am not yet sure, but there can't be yet another Joshua, I presume).

In 1881 I can't find Sarah and my Joshua, and George's wife Catherine is dead (I find him in the census + Joshua#4).

The problem is, that I haven't found Joshua McDonald#3 born in Liverpool (I have ordered a McDonald unknown 1869 from GRO, so fingers crossed) or Joshua#2 and his wife married (but I find them in the 1871 census).

And it doesn't become any easier. The only dead Catherine McDonald we could find in Liverpool isn't our Catherine. I can't find any of the Joshuas (the boys) dead. I have my Joshua (the son of Joshua#2) as married with Sarah Widders in 1890 (this is where I learned that he was the son of Joshua, and not George, as I had belived until then), and I also have him in the 1891 census, and the 1901 census living with Sarah. And then he dissapears with his wives best friend and is never heard of again (this my mother in law knows).

I don't know what happened to George and his son Joshua, or their mother Hannah.

As I say, this is the theory that I am working on, but I would really like to find either Joshua #3 born or Joshua #2 and Sarah married for me to make some more sense of this.

Does anyone know anything about this family?

Thanks
Geir

[Tina]

Hi Geir, welcome to the forum, I'm sure you will get lots of help from our members.
For the peeps, there is a tree in Ancestry, they have Joshua bn 1870, his father listed as George.
As Geir said this is incorrect.
This Josh in 1891 is a blacksmith 20 married to Sarah Lucy 21.
In Bhead in 1901 with 3 kiddies.
In 1871 Josh is with his father Joshua bn Manchester 1849 and his mother Sarah bn 1850 in Ireland.
Perhaps they married in Ireland & that's why Geir can't find the marriage?
Another thing, from Anx tree, they have Sarah nee Widders dying in Oslo Norway??

[Tina]

With regard to George, he is in 1871 census 34 bn Ire, with Catherine 24, Anna 5, Joshua 3 mnths.
In 1881 he's lodging, widowed his age is 50 dock labr, with Ann 15, Joshua 11 and little George 4yrs.
I believe his wife Catherine died dec qtr 1880 Lpool rego aged 33yrs.

[Bertieone]

So, this Joshua McDonald, Reg 1871, March Qtr, Liverpool, 8b 105.
Belongs to George and Catherine.

[Tina]

Yes Bert.

[MaryA]

I think you should quote precisely, including references what censuses you have them on so that we know we are identifying the correct family and seeing the whole picture as you view it.

I have some baptisms that might help with Joshua's marriage to Sarah if you can identify one of the children as there appear to be two - or did Joshua marry two Sarahs?

Baptism of Thomas McDonald at our Lady of Mount Carmel 20th December, 1880 - BIRTH 27 June 1875
Parents Joshua and Sarah McDonald (nee Brennan)
Godmother Catherine Gahan

Baptism of Elizabeth McDonald at St Vincent De Paul 14 April, 1897 - Birth 21 March, 1897
Parents Josue and Sarah McDonald (nee Widders)
Godmother Catherine McLean

[MaryA]

The burial of Joshua McDonald of Hare Place on 3rd May 1880, age 29 years too place in Walton Park Cemetery - C15 10/- A19

This choice of cemetery may mean that he died in the infirmary at Walton.

[MaryA]

Also at Walton Park Cemetery is the burial of Joshua McDonald of 26 Midghall Street on 8th April, 1865 age 56 years.

[Bertieone]

Mary,
The fog of war descends upon us,
can you open seperate threads,
Example,

Joshua (2) McDonald 1851/Sarah

George McDonald/Catherine Connell

Joshua (3) McDonald abt 1869/ Sarah Lucy Widders.

any findings we can place for those couples.

[dickiesam]

Hi Geir,
RE:

I have my Joshua (the son of Joshua#2) as married with Sarah Widders in 1890 (this is where I learned that he was the son of Joshua, and not George, as I had belived until then), and I also have him in the 1891 census, and the 1901 census living with Sarah. And then he dissapears with his wives best friend and is never heard of again (this my mother in law knows).

As MaryA asks could you give the census page references where you found your Joshua #3. The reference will be on the lines of RG?? - Piece: ??? - Folio: ?? - Page: ??

And re his 'disappearance', is this a family 'story' or fact with evidence? Does 'wife's best friend' have a name, even forename?

[MaryA]

can you open seperate threads,
Joshua (2) McDonald 1851/Sarah
George McDonald/Catherine Connell
Joshua (3) McDonald abt 1869/ Sarah Lucy Widders.

I would prefer the original poster to do this, separating his information and detailing the censuses he has for them, that way we aren't jumping to conclusions over the incorrect families, and also the posts if I separated them, would start with my name rather than Geir's.

[Bertieone]

Thanks Mary,
Hopefully we can encourage Geir to do so.

[GeirGG]

I can do that if that is better. Do I just "open new topic", and put the new information in the headline?

Thanks
Geir

[GeirGG]

Hello everybody!

Thanks a million for all the replies. I will reply to one at the time.

To Tina:

The tree in Ancestry, is one of my earliest trees, where I tried to make sense of it all. It is wrong. The reason why I belived it to be right, was that the Joshua in the 1871 census RG10/3772 seemed to fit all the information I had. He lives at home, with his father, and in 1881 RG11/3594 the same, and in 1891 he is married to Sarah Widders RG12/2910. So I ordered the birthcertificate and went from there. But, when I finally got the marriage lisence, I saw the Joshua was his father. So the one in 1871 and 1881 must be his cousin (from what I gather). I do not know where my Joshua is at that time, or what happens to the other Joshua in 1881. Sarah Widders and Sarah Ann McDonald (the daughter of Joshua and Sarah Widders) both die in Oslo, Norway.

To Tina2:

The Catherine I found died in 1877, so you might well be right (I didn't have the GRO number, so I tried ordering from each year). This would be the aunt of Joshua.

To Bertieone:

Yes, that Joshua would be my Joshuas cousin (I have that certificate).

To MaryA:

I belive that the only correct census I have them in is the 1871 census RG10/3770.

I know this is a bit confusing (I have been really confused myself), but there are three Joshuas. The first one that you mention, could be the father of my Joshua, if they had another child before he died. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

The other one is my Joshua (the other ones child).

To MaryA2:

This I belive could be the father of my Joshua (#3), and I have ordered the GRO for this person.

To Bertieone2:

At the present I am not so interested in George and Catherine, since that is the uncle and aunt, but I would love to find some more facts, that hopefully supports my theory so far about the Joshuas. Since I was on the wrong track for so long (thinking George was the father), I want to be absolutely certain that what I now think to be right is correct.

To dickiesam:

I have tried to do this on one of my previous answers.

This is a family story. This is what my mother in law was told that happenes (from Sarah Widders and Sarah Ann McDonald). We do not know the name of the best friend (that would have made life a little easier, I presume:-)

Thanks again
Geir

[Bertieone]

Hi Geir,

I thought it would make it more clear if the Joshua's were split up with their parteners and any information found could be kept under their particular thread. Heading perhaps, Joshua bn abt 1849/ sarah, adding what you already know and what you seek.

[dickiesam]

Geir, is this the 1871 census you referred to? You omitted the Folio and Page #s. It is the only one with a Joshua bn 1870/1.

RG10 - Piece: 3772 - Folio: 41 - Page: 37
Address: 5 House, 6 Court, Lower Milk Street, Liverpool.

MACDONALD, George - Head - 32 - Labourer - Ireland
MACDONALD, Catherine - Wife - 24 - Ireland
MACDONALD, Anna - Dtr - 5 - Lancashire
MACDONALD, Joshua - Son - 3 mths - Lancashire

Since you appear to think that George is in fact an uncle to your Joshua you need to check this Joshua's birth cert. Do not accept his marriage cert as proof of his father's name.

Birth: MCDONALD, Joshua
Registration district: Liverpool.
Year of registration: 1871; Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 105.

Note this is the only birth within the time frame suggested by Joshua in 1901. What age was given on his marriage cert?

[MaryA]

Added to that, as you have a distinct lack of censuses, we may be able to help by trying some tactical searches and maybe manage to add to what you already have.

[dickiesam]

And 1881....
RG11 - Piece: 3594 - Folio: 78 - Page: 44
Address: 1 House, 17 Court, Penrhyn [?] Street, Liverpool.

MC DONALD, George - Lodger - Head - Widower - 50 - Dock Lab - Ireland.
MC DONALD, Ann - Dtr - 15 - Liverpool.
MC DONALD, Joshua - Son - 11 - Scholar - Liverpool.
MC DONALD, George - Son - 4 - Scholar - Liverpool.

And, what happened to Sarah McD after Joshua apparently did a runner? Where is she in 1911?

[GeirGG]

Hi,

I will try and open new threads.

I have that Joshuas birth certificate. That is the son of George (born December 1870). But, the one that marries Sarah Widder is the son of Joshua.

There are two young Joshuas in Liverpool in the 1871 census. One is the one you refer to here (the son of George), and the other is the son of Joshua RG10/3770 page 39 (don't know where to find the folio number) born abt 1869.

To MaryA:

Thank you very much, I do have a lack of censuses. I do not kvow where my Joshua is in the 1881 census, or what happens to George and his Joshua in the 1891 census and forward.

Thanks
Geir

[dickiesam]

Geir, the Folio # is part and parcel of the census reference. Whenever you view a page or a transcript it will be between the Piece # and the Page #.

1871:
RG10 - Piece: 3770 - Folio: 24 - Page: 39
Address: 3 house, 5 Court, Hodson Street, Liverpool
MCDONALD, Joshua - Head - 22 - Scavenger - Manchester, Lancashire.
MCDONALD, Sarah - Wife - 21 - Ireland
MCDONALD, Joshua - Son - 2 - Lancashire