Another mystery - Arthur Gissing UPDATED

[Hilary]

I like it

1851 census Dennington Suffolk
Jonathan Button widower 55 ag lab bn Dennington
Betsy Button daur 24 bn Dennington
James Gobbett Button 1 grandson bn Bredfield
Arthur Button grandson 1 bn Bredfield
Louisa Barrett 9 servant bn Dennington
William Watson servant 15 bn Dennington.

[Alison C]

Births Dec 1849
James Gobbitt Button Woodbridge, vol 12 p479

Deaths Jun 1851
James Gobbitt Button Hoxne, vol 13, p 361

Given that Arthur and James were registered less than a year between them, I doubt they are both Betsey Button's children.

Family Search has more children for Jonathan Button and his wife Mary Ann:

Betsey Button c 4 March 1827
William Button c 29 Sep 1821
Sarah Button c 29 Sep 1821
Celia Button c 18 May 1823
Mary Button c 25 Sep 1825

In the 1871 census, Jonathan Button is living with his daughter Maria Vincent and her family (RG 10/[piece], folio 139, p. 9). Maria is aged 47 so presumably she is the Mary baptised in 1825.

[Hilary]

Possibly being fanciful here I found a possible marriage of a Mary Ann Button to a John Girling Dec 1853 Blything vol 4a page 1497. I can't find a Mary Ann Girling with a husband John in 1861.

I don't think the Jonathan with the Vincents in 1871 is the one in Dennington in 1841 and 1851 as the Vincent one says born Theberton and he shows as that in the 1851 and 1861 census.

[Alison C]

Good point about Jonathan Button. 1851 census has Jonathan b Theberton with his wife Esther - so defo not ours.

From FamilySearch, Celia Button and Sarah Button were both buried on 3 October 1827, so that rules them out as Arthur and James' mother.

Just leaves William, Betsey and Mary as possibles.

Alison

[dickiesam]

Could both Alice and Arthur have been registered as Buttons? Maybe this was Mary Ann's maiden name and she and John Gissing weren't married at the time?
Alison x

Re these two births.. I would consider the possibility that the parents were not married when the two children were born and perhaps never married if one of them was already married?

Births Jun 1849: Button, Arthur Gissing - Woodbridge - 12 - 539.
Births Sep 1850: Button, Alice Maria - Hoxne - 13 - 442
[The Hoxne district is right for Dennington, re 1871 census].

It would indeed be a 'coincidence' that an Arthur should have a middle name of Gissing, when that naming practice is sometimes used to identify the father's name. And a year later the only Alice Maria registered in Suffolk is also a Button.

The Button household in 1841:
BUTTON, Jonathan - 45 - 1796 - Ag labr - Suffolk
BUTTON, Mary - 45 - 1796 - Suffolk
BUTTON, Betsy - 14 - 1827 - Suffolk
PIPE, Edward - 15 - 1826 - Suffolk

HO107 - Piece: 1025 - Book/Folio: 13 - Page: 21
Address: The Place, Dennington, Suffolk

EDIT TO ADD: Erika, it could be worthwhile trying for the birth cert of Arthur Gissing Button, specifying the parents' names, and see what turns up. If it isn't right the GRO will issue a refund. If they find only one name is correct they will probably phone you and ask if you want the cert. They have done that a couple of times for me.

[erika]

Possibly being fanciful here I found a possible marriage of a Mary Ann Button to a John Girling Dec 1853 Blything vol 4a page 1497. I can't find a Mary Ann Girling with a husband John in 1861.

EDIT TO ADD: Erika, it could be worthwhile trying for the birth cert of Arthur Gissing Button, specifying the parents' names, and see what turns up. If it isn't right the GRO will issue a refund. If they find only one name is correct they will probably phone you and ask if you want the cert. They have done that a couple of times for me.

I like fanciful Hilary!
Can't believe how much the crew have found just by thinking outside the box Certainly food for thought here. So many different ways to go now, am looking forward to a new challenge.

Thanks for the tip DS, will certainly try for that cert, it certainly looks promising.

This one where the district is right for Dennington [re 1871 census].
Births Sep 1850: Button, Alice Maria - Hoxne - 13 - 442

There is also the following birth registration on FreeBMD:
Q2 1849
Arthur Gissing BUTTON Woodbridge, Vol 12, page 539

Could both Alice and Arthur have been registered as Buttons? Maybe this was Mary Ann's maiden name and she and John Gissing weren't married at the time??

Alison x

Thanks Alison for this find to set the ball rolling, fingers crossed

[dickiesam]

Hi Erika,
Re that Arthur Gissing birth cert. In case you didn't know the GRO withdrew their Reference Checking facility a couple of years ago so you have 'work the system' to get Reference Checks done for parents' names etc.

When you go to the GRO site and get to the 'Certificate choice' page, after ticking the relevant Birth or Marriage Cert box there's a question at the bottom asking whether the GRO reference is known. Tick the 'No' box and just enter the year of the birth you are interested in. Don't enter anything else here.

The 'Delivery address details' page comes next, and after that a new page will open allowing you to enter the names of the parents including a mother's maiden name in a birth cert application. The GRO will do a search one year either side of the given year.

[Barbara B]

Sorry I haven't anything concrete to offer but just couldn't pass by James Gobbitt Button! As my gran would have said, 'what a name to go to the docks with'.
Again, sorry for the diversion
Barbara

[Gray]

Great find Alison!!!

Further to that 1841 census with Samuel Gissing the surgeon (previous post)

Is this a coincidence?

1851 census: H107 Piece 1801 Folio 583 pg.10
address: Church street Woodbridge Suffolk

Anne's family all born Woodbridge
Anne Gissing head widow Land & House proprietor born Burgh Suffolk.
Anne dau unmarr 27
William J N son unmarr 21: bankers clerk & agent
Eleanor H unmarr 19
Alice G unmarr 19

Has two house servants.

1. Mary Ann BUTTON born c1829 MARRIED born Grundisburgh Suffolk.
According to Wiki Grundisburgh is 4 miles North West of Woodbridge

Arthur & Alice are probably with grandparents whilst she is working?

Gray

[Gray]

There is a Mary Ann Button 1841 census
Class H0107 piece:1020 Book 8

Family all born Suffolk




Listed as daughter to:

Joseph Button c1801 occ: ag lab
Susan c1796
William c 1827
Mary Ann 1829
Eliza c1832

no address listed

Civil Parish: Grundisburgh didtrict 8
Registration district: Woodbridge

Gray

[erika]

Well I'm surrounded by paper, all over the floor. I've printed off all your ideas and finds so now the jigsaw begins

I've done as you suggested DS and sent for the cert. Due date is ages away, but don't want to confuse the issue by jumping to conclusions too soon. It's going to be a long wait and I expect they are busy as WDYTYA is still on tv.

I'm still confused tho' as I have all the census from '61-'91 with Mary Ann's name on it, (apart from where she is Margaret in '61 which I think is a mistake having got baptisms in 1859 with Mary Ann named). Also why wasn't Arthur baptised at the same time as Alice? Could he have been baptised in Woodbridge?

And when did Arthur die??? Even with a Button surname, I haven't found one yet.
I reckon he was the black sheep of the family and went awol, especially as nobody left him any money

Thanks again everyone you've all been great

[dickiesam]

RE:

And when did Arthur die??? Even with a Button surname, I haven't found one yet. I reckon he was the black sheep of the family and went awol, especially as nobody left him any money

I agree with the above possibility that he did a runner especially as he was an accountant and perhaps had access to money to do a comfortable runner with. I haven't found a death for him under either name, so he may have changed his name as well and disappeared into the mist.

He seems to have 'gone' between the 1878 birth of Nellie in Liverpool and the 1881 census. So were they in Liverpool to catch a boat to the Americas but only Arthur actually went? I have come across 'change-of-heart' before on the eve of an emigration.

[erika]

Just to let you know the latest developments on my mystery.

Received Saturday death cert for John Gissing died 1891
The interesting thing about this cert was that Mary Gissing daughter in law, Arthur's wife was the informant.
At least they kept in touch

Today's post brought more interesting news.
Birth cert for Henry William Gissing 1859
Father John Gissing, Mother Mary Ann Gissing formerly BUTTON

Am I finally on the right track for Arthur's birth? Can't wait to hear about that birth cert of his.

Which also brings me back to John Gissing and Mary Ann Button's marriage, WHEN??

Also Arthur's disappearance???

Anyway that's the latest news from this end

[MaryA]

Which also brings me back to John Gissing and Mary Ann Button's marriage, WHEN??

and where? Harking back to the marriage found of a John Gissing and Mary Ann Sawyer, I can't find a previous to Button/Sawyer to explain it.

[Hilary]

How about this one I suggested earlier

Possibly being fanciful here I found a possible marriage of a Mary Ann Button to a John Girling Dec 1853 Blything vol 4a page 1497. I can't find a Mary Ann Girling with a husband John in 1861.

[MaryA]

Sounds a good ... bad transcript to me.

[erika]

How about this one I suggested earlier

Possibly being fanciful here I found a possible marriage of a Mary Ann Button to a John Girling Dec 1853 Blything vol 4a page 1497. I can't find a Mary Ann Girling with a husband John in 1861.

This certainly sounds promising, although the index is handwritten it definitely says Girling.
Is it likely the transcription to the index is incorrect, are they copied from records sent to them. Not explaining myself too well here, but how do the records get sent to the official indexes?

[erika]

Harking back to the marriage found of a John Gissing and Mary Ann Sawyer, I can't find a previous to Button/Sawyer to explain it.

I have this marriage cert and it doesn't seem to fit. The occupation is different and I have found them in a later census where the ages are very different and there are no children.

[MaryA]

Is it likely the transcription to the index is incorrect, are they copied from records sent to them.

It gets a bit complicated, but from the local registers they are compiled and sent to the GRO, it is very easy for mistakes to be made, there being I believe three occasions when a re-written entry could have a mistake made. You may also be interested in this article.
http://www.hertfordshire-genealogy.co.u ... errors.htm

[Alison C]

How about this one I suggested earlier

Possibly being fanciful here I found a possible marriage of a Mary Ann Button to a John Girling Dec 1853 Blything vol 4a page 1497. I can't find a Mary Ann Girling with a husband John in 1861.

Familysearch has the following in 1871 which could be them:

Registration district: Blything

John Girling, head, age 48, born Westleton, Suffolk
Mary Ann Girling, wife, age 48, born Aldringham, Suffolk
Ishmael Girling, son, age 16, born Leiston, Suffolk
Louisa Girling, daughter, age 11, born Leiston, Suffolk
Elizabeth Girling, daughter, age 8, born Leiston, Suffolk


Alison