certificates for Thomas Smith 1st April 1900

[dawnelyndadawe]

Can someone help me with advise.
Is there anyway i can ask the records office in Liverpool to do a blanket search of birth certificates
As i keep ordering Thomas Smith, i have enough to wallpaper my lounge?
Anyone else with a Thomas Smith from Liverpool, look no further than me.
He said he came from Liverpool region, but that could be Birkenhead, widnes etc etc districts in and around Liverpool
All the family know is Thomas Smith 1st April 1900 Liverpool region father Samuel Smith, father was a labourer

Any advise or help by the professionals within your family history society.
Please much needed advise on this one
Thanks
Dawne in Spain

[dickiesam]

Hello Dawn,
To save you money on certs we have to put some precision into the request. Where does that date of April 1st 1900 and place of birth come from? Is it on a document of some kind and how do you know his father's name? And do you have him in the 1901 and 1911 Censuses? There are couple of Thomases with a father Samuel but they not in Liverpool or Birkenhead. Is it known for certain that he lived somewhere else with a recorded address that you know?

The GRO will do a search one year either side of the year you specify but you must simply enter the year and nothing else when you complete the form. But you need more certain background before you do that. His DoB could be wrong if it is based on hearsay. When and where did he die?

When you go to the GRO site and get to the 'Certificate choice' page, after ticking the relevant Birth or Marriage Cert box there's a question at the bottom asking whether the GRO reference is known. Tick the 'No' box and just enter the year of the birth you are interested in. Don't enter anything else here.

The 'Delivery address details' page comes next, and after that a new page will open allowing you to enter the names of the parents including the mother's maiden name in the case of a birth cert application. The GRO will do a search 1 year either side of the given year. If they don't find the cert with the exact details you specified they will refund the fee.

[MaryA]

Yes you can ask either the GRO or the local Register Office to do a search based on the criteria you give them, just make sure not to provide them with the references. If they don't turn it up then they will refund your money. Don't forget that if you are basing your assumption of the father's name from, say the marriage certificate, he may not have been telling the truth.

Do you have his death certificate? in the 20th Century, generally speaking if it is known, the date of birth will have been entered by the informant.

As he was born before two available censuses, have you narrowed down your search by finding the family in both 1901 and 1911?

From one of the hard working Amateurs of the Society

[CaroleW]

Hi

Did you get his fathers name from his marriage cert?

Neither the 1901 or 1911 censuses have a match to that profile.

Are you absolutely certain that he was actually born in Liverpool?

[dawnelyndadawe]

Gosh there are some good people up there in Liverpool how very kind.
This is what i have

Marriage certificate to my grandmother in 1929
States he is 29 years old and his father was Sauel Smith

I have his Merchant seaman recordsjoining and discharge
He states
Thomas Smith dob 1900 from Liverpool 5'8" Fair complexion

And finally i have just received his Home Guard joining up records

Thomas Smith date of birth 1st April 1900 (his own hand writing and signature)
Thomas Smith British subject
Parents mother british (no name)
Father british (no name)

I have his death certificate also
Thomas Smith age 64 that was in 1964 and the informant my mum name and the cause of his death heart attack. 70 St Bernards Road, Shirehampton Bristol (where he lived from 1930 until 1965)
Nothing more than that.
Can anyone else thing what else i can apply for.
I have written to NHS records to see if they have anything else on him, he was a tax payer until he died in 1964.

Who else can i write or ask if they have records on him please.

Thanks to you all for your very helpful input

[dickiesam]

Hello Dawn,
Thank you for all the info. My personal suggestion is to apply to the GRO exactly as outlined in my previous post. Do not specify a District, Quarter, Volume or Page number. Just enter the year then follow my post and enter his father's name. The GRO will search 1 year either side of 1900 for you and if they don't get a match they will refund the fee.

One question you didn't answer though... Have you found Thomas in the 1911 census? It is quite possible that Thomas thought he was born in Liverpool because that was the first place he remembered as a child.
Other questions...
Was his father indicated as 'deceased' when Thomas married?
What are the names of the witnesses on the marriage cert?
Where and whom did he marry in 1928 and what was his home address?
Did Thomas have any siblings that you are aware of?

RE:

Any advise or help by the professionals within your family history society.

Just noticed the 'pro' reference! Apart from some members having studied hard, sat exams and earned qualifications in the subject, we is all keen amateur genealogists!

[CaroleW]

Hi
The good news is that the 1901 census only has 5 entries for Thomas Smith b 1900 father Samuel. There are another 3 who have other christian names as well as Thomas but we will ignore them for now

Only one was born in Lancashire - Atherton

The other areas are Derbyshire, Cheshire, Durham

In 1911 - there are only 4 entries with a birthyear 1900 and father Samuel - Leicester, Cheshire & Durham. Also one b Durham 1901

Illegitimate children often made up a father when they married to appear "respectable". Whilst we don't know at this stage whether your Thomas was illegitimate - you may want to bear that possibility in mind

[Bertieone]

Hi Dawn,

Would one of the birth certs you have sent for be this Thomas, 1901, Father, Samuel, Mother, Margaret, Children and Thomas 3 months,
RG13, Piece3596, Folio49, Page32.

Being on Ancestry myself and can view what I believe is your tree, I see Thomas was sent to Canada before 1910, Home Children, if you still believe this to be correct, it saves others searching the 1911 census. The more information you put forward helps others whilst searching.

[Bertieone]

To add to above,

If Thomas spent some of his early life in a home and then was sent to Canada, his date of birth of April 1st may well have been a guesstimate, a date given to him.

[MaryA]

If Thomas spent some of his early life in a home and then was sent to Canada

No chance that there was ever any mention of the name of the home? I'm afraid there were quite a number, even smaller ones around that date and even searching the records of all those known about might still not result in success, but perhaps a check of some of the more well known ones might produce a result, again no small feat.

[dawnelyndadawe]

Well firstly i am so impressed by all you helpers, so keen and kind

I am only stating what my mum has told me, family whispers, she thought he was sent by Barnardos or a similar association, but i have requested 3 searches now from Barnardos they know me well!!!

His birth date could have been a quesstimate but who would say you were bon April fools day!! not many
He was slilent about his young life, and i think he had been put in the workhouse, or somewhere similar it was a painful pass, he told us nothing

I am on this daily thinking of different avenues to look for information on my grandfather.
The answer lies in the Merseyside area i know.
He probably filled out plenty of forms in his lifetime but they did not want all the info they do nowadays.

He stated on his marriage certificate his father was Samuel Smith deceased labourer when he married in 1929

Father died possibly, so maybe he came from a large family in Liverpool mum could not manage and sent two of the children away.

The only Samuel Smith i could find who died was in 1909
He was in fact William Samuel Smith who died at 63 Opie Street, informant was his mother Harriet Smith, which is strange if he had been married it would have been his wife. He was a Marnier, a stoker, which is exactly what my grandfather become when he joined Merchant Navy maybe just a fluke

Samuel Smith deceased 1909 was in fact christened William Smith in the Liverpool Catholic baptism records

Maybe he was born after 1901 census and left before the 1911 census, however i cannot find him on Canadian census 1911 but i can find him 1916 Alberta census.

He is somewhere in Liverpool and regions, he must have been put into a workhouse or industrial school somewhere

But thanks if anyone does research for payment please me know, thanks again you are all brilliant well done Liverpool
You are all amazing and it really helps having local knowledge

[dawnelyndadawe]

Hi Dawn,

Would one of the birth certs you have sent for be this Thomas, 1901, Father, Samuel, Mother, Margaret, Children and Thomas 3 months,
RG13, Piece3596, Folio49, Page32.

Being on Ancestry myself and can view what I believe is your tree, I see Thomas was sent to Canada before 1910, Home Children, if you still believe this to be correct, it saves others searching the 1911 census. The more information you put forward helps others whilst searching.

Found this family very sad, lost so many children i think they had about 4 babies buried at Toxeth cememtry.
Samuel Smith and Margaret Mc Dermott that Thomas died.
Checked all of their children they had on protestant baptisms also. Very sad family they never had a Catherine/Katherine either

[dawnelyndadawe]

If Thomas spent some of his early life in a home and then was sent to Canada

No chance that there was ever any mention of the name of the home? I'm afraid there were quite a number, even smaller ones around that date and even searching the records of all those known about might still not result in success, but perhaps a check of some of the more well known ones might produce a result, again no small feat.

No never any name of a home, my mum always said Barnardos or a similar association, but i have written to Barnardos 3 times for checks, Catholic society, National children homes which was Waifs and strays, Middlemore homes you name i have written to them all. Best friends with them now!!

[dawnelyndadawe]

Hello Dawn,
To save you money on certs we have to put some precision into the request. Where does that date of April 1st 1900 and place of birth come from? Is it on a document of some kind and how do you know his father's name? And do you have him in the 1901 and 1911 Censuses? There are couple of Thomases with a father Samuel but they not in Liverpool or Birkenhead. Is it known for certain that he lived somewhere else with a recorded address that you know?

The GRO will do a search one year either side of the year you specify but you must simply enter the year and nothing else when you complete the form. But you need more certain background before you do that. His DoB could be wrong if it is based on hearsay. When and where did he die?

When you go to the GRO site and get to the 'Certificate choice' page, after ticking the relevant Birth or Marriage Cert box there's a question at the bottom asking whether the GRO reference is known. Tick the 'No' box and just enter the year of the birth you are interested in. Don't enter anything else here.

The 'Delivery address details' page comes next, and after that a new page will open allowing you to enter the names of the parents including the mother's maiden name in the case of a birth cert application. The GRO will do a search 1 year either side of the given year. If they don't find the cert with the exact details you specified they will refund the fee.

I will give that a go, i am now ordering certificates that are 1903 just in case it got it wrong. But he could have been born outside of liverpool Prescot, Birkenhead, will they do a blanket check for me, of all districts.

[dawnelyndadawe]

Yes you can ask either the GRO or the local Register Office to do a search based on the criteria you give them, just make sure not to provide them with the references. If they don't turn it up then they will refund your money. Don't forget that if you are basing your assumption of the father's name from, say the marriage certificate, he may not have been telling the truth.

Do you have his death certificate? in the 20th Century, generally speaking if it is known, the date of birth will have been entered by the informant.

As he was born before two available censuses, have you narrowed down your search by finding the family in both 1901 and 1911?

From one of the hard working Amateurs of the Society

Hiya thanks for your reply.
My grandfather death certificate the information states his name thomas smith age 64, cause of death, informant "my mum" and his address 70 St Bernards Road Shirehampton Bristol where he lived for 35 years, no more, no district,no mothers maiden name. that is it. But thanks,it is very kind of you

[dawnelyndadawe]

Hi Dawn,

Would one of the birth certs you have sent for be this Thomas, 1901, Father, Samuel, Mother, Margaret, Children and Thomas 3 months,
RG13, Piece3596, Folio49, Page32.

Being on Ancestry myself and can view what I believe is your tree, I see Thomas was sent to Canada before 1910, Home Children, if you still believe this to be correct, it saves others searching the 1911 census. The more information you put forward helps others whilst searching.

Sad family Samuel smith Margaret McDermott they lost 4 children all buried at Toxeth cemetry, Thomas smith died, and they never had a Catherine/Katherine, the children baptism records are o Ancestry co.uk under protestant section.

[dawnelyndadawe]

To add to above,

If Thomas spent some of his early life in a home and then was sent to Canada, his date of birth of April 1st may well have been a guesstimate, a date given to him.

Hiya Bert,

I agree, but who would choose April fools day of all days for your birthday.!!
He might have been put in a home young 6 to 9 and could not remember all the details, as you said guesstimation
Dad name, date of birth, and made up his own identity

I have a feeling his sister and mother might have been called Katherine/Catherine as he was adamant by mum middle name was Catherine. Again guesstimation!! thanks for your input

[simone]

Hi Dawn
In all your wrong certificates, do you have this little guy with mother Mary?

1901 census
RG13; Piece: 3419; Folio: 107; Page: 18.
2/21 Roscoe Lane
Mary E Smith 28 head, widow, charwoman
Thomas Smith 1 son
Eleanor Smith 64 mother in law

tried to tie up a marriage in Liverpool Records on Anc, closest I get is this, age a little out for Mary

Mary Elizabeth Ward 25
Father's Name: Thomas Ward, Boilermaker
Joseph Samuel Cornelius Smith, Fireman, Glover Street
Father's Name William Whitfield Smith, deceased, Mason
Marriage Date: 10 Jun 1900
Toxteth Park Holy Trinity
witness: Thomas? Mason? can't make this one out,
witnes: Sarah Ward

using Tom Nunamaker census calculator for the 1901 census date:-
Age 1 on March 31, 1901 your birthday would be between:
Sat 01 Apr 1899 Earliest Possible birthday
Sat 31 Mar 1900 Last Possible birthday,

which led to me wonder that if this child is possibly your Thomas, and if it is right marriage, could he have been born as a Ward?

haven't tied Eleanor up yet although there are a couple of possibilities on census.

May be another marrige for this Mary which not in Liverpool records

just an idea maybe



Simone x

[Hilary]

Does Thomas appear in this collection?

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/data ... 1015-130-e...

If he does which ship is he on and what other information is given?

THis is better
Introduction - Home Children (1869-1930) - Library and Archives ...
www.collectionscanada.gc.ca › Home › Exploration and Settlement

It takes you straight to the search page. I did a blanket search and could see no Thomas Smith going from the Liverpool area at the approx right time.

You say he joined the Merchant Navy (British or Canadian) - when and where was this and how did he come back from Canada to the UK?

Another thought would be do you have the address he was living in 1939 at outbreak of war? If you do you could apply for the information from the 1939 National Enumeration Transcript books for that addresss. It costs £42 and should give, I believe, date and place of birth.

[dawnelyndadawe]

Hi Dawn
In all your wrong certificates, do you have this little guy with mother Mary?

1901 census
RG13; Piece: 3419; Folio: 107; Page: 18.
2/21 Roscoe Lane
Mary E Smith 28 head, widow, charwoman
Thomas Smith 1 son
Eleanor Smith 64 mother in law

tried to tie up a marriage in Liverpool Records on Anc, closest I get is this, age a little out for Mary

Mary Elizabeth Ward 25
Father's Name: Thomas Ward, Boilermaker
Joseph Samuel Cornelius Smith, Fireman, Glover Street
Father's Name William Whitfield Smith, deceased, Mason
Marriage Date: 10 Jun 1900
Toxteth Park Holy Trinity
witness: Thomas? Mason? can't make this one out,
witnes: Sarah Ward

using Tom Nunamaker census calculator for the 1901 census date:-
Age 1 on March 31, 1901 your birthday would be between:
Sat 01 Apr 1899 Earliest Possible birthday
Sat 31 Mar 1900 Last Possible birthday,

which led to me wonder that if this child is possibly your Thomas, and if it is right marriage, could he have been born as a Ward?

haven't tied Eleanor up yet although there are a couple of possibilities on census.

May be another marrige for this Mary which not in Liverpool records

just an idea maybe



Simone x

Hiya love your name!!

Anyhow found this one also and came to a dead end.
They are not al together on 1911, but Ward might be a good name.
I will look under Canadian Home children to see if a Thomas Ward was sent between 1908 & 1912, he might have called himself Smith but really had another surname at birth. That is the biggest possibility. Thanks Simone
We are also looking for a catherine/katherine somewhere as there were two children sent from the family thomas the eldest and his little sister