The Murray Family of Liverpool

[MaryA]

No I don't think he did marry twice, I think there were three separate marriages.

[Bertieone]

No I don't think he did marry twice, I think there were three separate marriages.

I can't find a second marriage for Peter on BMD, if he did marry a second time, perhaps outside England and Wales. Still find it strange the registering of the children, any thoughts on that.

[winstonevertongroovy]

Ok just heard from my cousin who says my Nin was definitely Mary Jane Howarth with a father called Thomas & Mother Margaret plus she remembers an Eliza Howarth so the Howarth family we have looks correct, a very interesting fact is that Mary Jane was apparently just 16 when she married Peter so while I think the 15th May 1910 marriage looks like being the correct one her stated age is probably wrong,(or should I say a lie), looks like she could have been born in 1894.
My other cousin is away at the moment but it seems she may know more so will await her return.

On to the subject of my Grandads medals, I have quite a few but not all have inscriptions on, these are the ones that do with their inscriptions.

The 1939-1945 Star - P.Murray M.N. (Merchant Navy I presume)
The Atlantic Star - P.Murray -M.N.-
The Burma Star - P.Murray -M.N.-

Then there are 2 that show 2 swords crossed inside a wreath that say 1914-15 & GV (George 5th?) on the front then on the back one says P.Murray TR. M.P.A. & the other 49524 PTE P.Murray L'pool R.

[winstonevertongroovy]

My cousin just confirmed Peter was on the Empress of Ireland so I'm now going to try & see what other ships he was on.

[dickiesam]

My cousin just confirmed Peter was on the Empress of Ireland so I'm now going to try & see what other ships he was on.

Lee, if you look carefully at one of those MN Cards you have you will see one is a replacement for one lost in the sinking of the Empress of Ireland.

[winstonevertongroovy]

My cousin just confirmed Peter was on the Empress of Ireland so I'm now going to try & see what other ships he was on.

Lee, if you look carefully at one of those MN Cards you have you will see one is a replacement for one lost in the sinking of the Empress of Ireland.

You are right, how do I go about checking out all the other ships that are listed by number on the back of the cards?

I am having trouble finding the Howarths on ancestry now for some reason!!!

[Bertieone]

[quote=

I am having trouble finding the Howarths on ancestry now for some reason!!![/quote]


Ancestry Homepage, right hand side, Recent Activity and below, Searches,

you can see what you have viewed recently

[dickiesam]

You are right, how do I go about checking out all the other ships that are listed by number on the back of the cards?

Follow the suggestions that came with the cards. The Clip site http://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsnum.php will help ID the vessels and vessel type [note whether a Steam Ship or a Motor Vessel]. Then simply google a ship's name in your browser and hope! If the vessel is a steam ship named, say, Campari just google SS Campari. If she is a motor vessel google MV Campari. A surprising number of photos of ships are out there.

Ships' names were often used several times and if you get more than one hit with Clip, choose the vessel nearest to you seaman's enlistment date for that ship on the card.

[Hilary]

There's a medal card for private Peter Murray 49524 of the Liverpool Regiment. He was given the Victory and the British Medal.

[winstonevertongroovy]

Cheers Bertie

Thanks Dickiesam, I've just been on The Clip site & made a list of all the ships that I think he was on, funnily enough the only mention of the Empress of Ireland was that note on the card, no number or date was given for it.

@ Education Officer - apart from the 9 stars I have there are a load of ribbons plus 4 round medals -
2 are silver with King George 6th on the front and the words GEORGIVS VI ,(then a letter obscured by the ribbon holder but could be D), G.BR. OMN. REX ET INDIAE IMP, the reverse has a Lion standing over some sort of mythical creature with the dates 1939 & 1945.
A 3rd silver medal says GEORGIVS V BRITT. OMN. REX ET INDIAE:IMP: with the reverse showing a naked man on a horse & the dates 1914 & 1918
4th is gold with an angel on the front & THE GREAT WAR FOR CIVILISATION 1914-1919 on the back.

[Blue70]

An interesting story here about a fireman who survived Titanic, Empress of Ireland and Lusitania. There is a little photo of some of the crew of Empress of Ireland:-

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/lucky-tower.html


Blue

[winstonevertongroovy]

An interesting story here about a fireman who survived Titanic, Empress of Ireland and Lusitania. There is a little photo of some of the crew of Empress of Ireland:-

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/lucky-tower.html


Blue

on the subject of firemen am I to take it that Peter would have been a fireman on the ships rather than the fire engine/hose/slippery pole/fire station type?, my cousin was very surprised when I mentioned this line of profession.

Edit - hold on it looks like he was a trimmer whatever that is..............ok found it now
"Moved the coal about in the stokehold to keep the ship in trim and on an even keel"

[Blue70]

Some useful information here:-

http://www.barrymerchantseamen.org.uk/a ... etrim.html


Blue

[dickiesam]

Re:

Thanks Dickiesam, I've just been on The Clip site & made a list of all the ships that I think he was on, funnily enough the only mention of the Empress of Ireland was that note on the card, no number or date was given for it.

The Empress of Ireland sank after being hit by a Norwegian collier on the 28th of May 1914. The replacement card was issued on the 28th of July 1914. Great Britain entered WW1 on the 4th of August 1914.

According to the National Archives, registration of Merchant Navy seamen stopped between 1857 and 1913, and the entries for 1913 to 1917 have not survived. And no registers of service exist for the crew of merchant ships for the period of the First World War. So any crew enlistments would have only been recorded from 1918.

[winstonevertongroovy]

Re:

Thanks Dickiesam, I've just been on The Clip site & made a list of all the ships that I think he was on, funnily enough the only mention of the Empress of Ireland was that note on the card, no number or date was given for it.

The Empress of Ireland sank after being hit by a Norwegian collier on the 28th of May 1914. The replacement card was issued on the 28th of July 1914. Great Britain entered WW1 on the 4th of August 1914.

According to the National Archives, registration of Merchant Navy seamen stopped between 1857 and 1913, and the entries for 1913 to 1917 have not survived. And no registers of service exist for the crew of merchant ships for the period of the First World War. So any crew enlistments would have only been recorded from 1918.

That would explain why the dates on the cards are from 1919 onwards then, I also had a bit of trouble making some of the info out where instead of or as well as the number of the ship there is a name, I think the 1st one says Ypiranga,(in fact that does tally with the number), but there is another on the 15/11/19 which I think says Thranga although I can't verify this. It's a great pity there are no records before 1918 although I have seen his name on the list of Empress of Ireland crew, strange to think that if he wouldn't have been saved I wouldn't be typing this now.

[MaryA]

Still find it strange the registering of the children, any thoughts on that.

I think they belonged to the three different marriages, the dates fit in with the dates the children were born, Peter appears to have been married only the once.

[Hilary]

The 2 medals with George V on them are the 2 from the First World War that are on his medal card as mentioned above.

My great uncles' fiancee's cousin also survived the sinking of the Empress of Ireland. She was a Canadian Pacific ship. During the First World War merchant seamen appear to have either had to or chose to attest for military service. The man on the Empress of Ireland went into the Army and died in 1916 in the trenches of France. His friend another great uncle went into the Royal Navy (he was a steward and became an Officer's steward in the Royal Navy). He survived and returned to the Merchant Navy serving almost exclusively on Canadian Pacific ships. Both he and the man who died in France probably served on some of the ships your grandfather served on but they probably never met as mine were pantry boys and then stewards.

[Bertieone]

Lee,
Informative link

http://www.greatwar.co.uk/medals/ww1-british-medals.htm

[winstonevertongroovy]

The 2 medals with George V on them are the 2 from the First World War that are on his medal card as mentioned above.

My great uncles' fiancee's cousin also survived the sinking of the Empress of Ireland. She was a Canadian Pacific ship. During the First World War merchant seamen appear to have either had to or chose to attest for military service. The man on the Empress of Ireland went into the Army and died in 1916 in the trenches of France. His friend another great uncle went into the Royal Navy (he was a steward and became an Officer's steward in the Royal Navy). He survived and returned to the Merchant Navy serving almost exclusively on Canadian Pacific ships. Both he and the man who died in France probably served on some of the ships your grandfather served on but they probably never met as mine were pantry boys and then stewards.

Thanks Hilary I'm really interested in his life at sea, my dad & 4 of his brothers were also in the Merchant Navy, my dad was a steward.

Great link Bert I will have a good look at that. I have 13 medals but 22 ribbons for some reason and I need to see if I can find out what the different colours of the ribbons signify, I also have a gold coloured 'tobacco' tin with a lady's head on the front with the letter M each side of her and the words IMPERIUM BRITTANICUM CHRISTMAS 1914 plus BELGIUM, FRANCE, JAPAN, RUSSIA, MONTE NEGRO & SERVIA.

I've received a message from somebody on ancestry who has my Nin in her tree and she's pointed something out that I hadn't noticed, Mary Jane & her father Thomas have both signed their names Howorth rather than Howarth which is interesting.
Lee

[dickiesam]

On the subject of firemen am I to take it that Peter would have been a fireman on the ships rather than the fire engine/hose/slippery pole/fire station type?, my cousin was very surprised when I mentioned this line of profession.

A ship's fireman was a man who looked after the fires aka a stoker, a highly skilled job!
See http://www.barrymerchantseamen.org.uk/a ... etrim.html as posted elsewhere.

Firemen are also to be found ashore in places like gas works.