ANN JONES AND WILLIAM BIGGS

[CaroleW]

His tree led me to a William Biggs, single and a farm worker who was on the 1841 census in Rushbury Shropshire with his parents, Thomas and Sarah.

That William Biggs was 22yrs old in 1841 and 33yrs in 1851 so considerably younger than Ann Jones

The 1841 and 51 show him living in the Church Stretton RD and there is a September qtr 1845 marriage in that RD to Ann Bright

There is a death for an Anne Biggs in June qtr 1846 but no age shown

Unfortunately - the marriage is not fully transcribed on the IGI so no way of knowing if his father was Thomas https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N28K-C59

[simone]

Hi Tuxette, welcome

Is this the right family in 1841? at Wall, Rushbury

HO107; Piece: 913; Book: 11Folio: 3; Page: 3
Thomas Biggs 68
Sarah Biggs 65
William Biggs 22


so this make William about 15 yrs younger than Ann

Simone x

[simone]

ahh snap Carole

[Tuxette]

I admit that the age difference has bothered me too but without knowing more about our William I can't be sure. I do agree that it's unlikely though which is why I'd love to find their marriage certificate which seems evermore unlikely.

[simone]

Hi

Re Joseph's marriage to Rebecca Law in 1866... the witnessed are Alfred and Mary Brabbins.
Alfred Brabbins married Mary Jones in Sep q 1853 West Derby.
In 1871RG10; Piece: 3808; Folio: 4; Page: 1
name amended to Brabbins on Ancestry
Alfred O'brabbins 40 b Birmingham
Mary O'brabbins 37 b Chester City
Alfred O'brabbins 13 assistant Pawnbroker b Liverpool
Charles O'brabbins 11 b Liverpool
Joshua O'brabbins 6 b Liverpool
Benjamin O'brabbins 4 b Liverpool
Ann O'brabbins 1 b Liverpool
Ann Brabbins 62 b Birmingham

Mary was born Chester City c 1834. Do you know if she is realted to Ann Jones, a sister perhaps?

Simone x

[simone]

Ahh got their marriage...

Edge Hill St Stephen the Martyr
18/7/1853
Alfred Brabbins 22, Engine smith, Bachelor, father Joseph Brabbins, Bricklayer
Mary Jones 20, spinster, father Edward Jones, Carpenter
both at Hamilton Terrace
witnesess Charles and Emma Walker

father is also Edward like Ann's so are they sisters? bit of a difference in age if they are

[CaroleW]

However I am quite lucky to have a lot of various family papers and using these we found another member of this family, a Mary Jones from Chester. Through a lot of research we were able to piece together her family (from parish records at the Chester office). It seems that Ann was her sister.

If Ann was b 1804 then Mary (Brabbins) b 1831/1833 is unlikely to be her sister given the age difference so who is the Mary shown above - when was she born etc. It seems to be a bit coincidental that her father was also Edward as was Ann's

Ann's age when she had the boys bothers me - she would have been 38 when she had William and 40 when she had Joseph. Quite old back in those days for a first child

[Tuxette]

YES! The Brabbins connection is correct. I have a letter from an Oliver Brabbins addressed to my Great Grandfather Joseph on the death of Joseph's wife, Rebecca so I know the family connection is there and I too think that Ann was a sister of Mary Brabbins nee Jones, or more likely a half sister as I think that Edward Jones may have married twice.

[simone]

wonder if the witnesses on William Henry's marriage to Hannah Archer would give any clues to the Biggs family shame it's not online

[Tuxette]

Firstly, I agree with all that's been said, particularly that Ann would have been unusually old in those days to give birth. Her death certificate gave her age as 44 which suggests a birth in 1804 or thereabouts.

I've now dug out the notes from the Chester Records office. A few years ago a kind lady did some looks up for me and this is what she found:-

St John the Baptists MF 213/69 BTs

Elizabeth, daughter of Edward Jones and Mary Jones
Occupation ship's carpenter. Born 27/7/1802, baptised 19/10/1806

Ann, daughter of Edward Jones and Mary Jones
Occupation ship's carpenter. Born 31/5/1804, baptised 19/10/1806

Mary, daughter of Edward Jones and Mary Jones
Occupation ship's carpenter. Born 27/7/1806, baptised 19/10/1806

William, son of Edward Jones and Mary Jones
Occupation ship's carpenter. Born 9/10/1810, baptised 31/1/1810

Sarah, daughter of Edward Jones and Mary Jones
Occupation ship's carpenter. baptised 17/3/1813

Edward, son of Edward Jones and Mary Jones
Occupation: shipwright - Brook Street, 11/8/1818

Mary, daughter of Edward Jones and Eliza Jones
Occupation: carter. Baptised 23/6/1839. Address York Street

Was this last entry the Mary who became Brabbins and had Edward re-married? Or possibly a different Edward altogether?

More mysteries!

[MaryA]

Edward, son of Edward Jones and Mary Jones
Occupation: shipwright - Brook Street, 11/8/1818

Mary, daughter of Edward Jones and Eliza Jones
Occupation: carter. Baptised 23/6/1839. Address York Street

Was this last entry the Mary who became Brabbins and had Edward re-married? Or possibly a different Edward altogether?

I don't think this is the same family. 1841 census HO107; Piece: 129; Book: 14; Civil Parish: St John The Baptist; County: Cheshire; Enumeration District: 11; Folio: 9; Page: 13; Line: 21 has them still in Brook Street, although there is a Mary Jones age 2, the older children are different ages - Edward is 30 a Carter, Elizth 35, Jane 14, John 9, Ann 7, Edward 5 and Mary 2.

Thinking about it, maybe some of the children that don't fit with Edward and Mary as parents, were children of Elizabeth who were just enumerated under the name Jones, after all Edward is noted as a Carter at the same address. Possibly York Street was where Elizabeth went to give birth - her parents possibly? It is definitely worth a thought.

[simone]

Could mary brabbins be daughter of ann's brother edward?

[Tuxette]

Simone,

This just could be. I'll go back over my records and see what I know of Edward junior!

[simone]

Hi

Been wondering about this William in 1841, but no occ's listed.... can' see this family after 1841 can anyone else?

HO107; Piece: 568; Book: 20 Folio: 41; Page: 4

Millers St?
Thomas Bigh 35
Mary Bigh 35
Robert Bigh 15
Ellas Bigh 12
William Bigh 19
John Bigh 9
Thomas Bigh 6
Mary Bigh 2
Robert Bigh 9 Mo

[CaroleW]

Hi Simone

Can't see anything in 1851 but parents of William & Joseph were William Henry Biggs & Ann nee Jones

[simone]

Hi Carole

Yes, was just wondering if William age 19 could be William Henry just before marriage maybe.

Thanks

Simone x

[Tuxette]

I may have had a 'light bulb' moment! On the other hand the electricity might just have gone off. However, for what it's worth and for anyone who is still even mildly interested in these ramblings here's my thoughts.

A couple of days ago Simone suggested that perhaps Mary Jones could have been the son of Edward Jones junior and this is a possibility but I know nothing of the son Edward. However, it suddenly occurred to me that she could well have been an earlier child of Ann herself - perhaps illegitimate.

Facts: we know that Mary came from Chester through census evidence. We know that she was born circa 1834 and her maiden name was Jones. She gave her father's name at her marriage as Edward a carpenter. My Gt Gt Grandmother, Ann Jones we believe to have been born in 1804 and therefore had they been related as I previously thought they would have been half sisters with the same father.

But, here's the big piece of evidence. I have already mentioned the letter I have, written in 1903 from Oliver Brabbins (Mary's son) to Joseph Biggs (William and Ann's son and my Gt Grandfather); it was a condolence letter written at the time of the death of Rebecca, Joseph's wife. He starts..."Dear Uncle"

Well of course I knew this some time ago but had dismissed this possibly vital piece of evidence thinking that in fact Joseph and Oliver had been cousins but due to the big age difference he had born brought up to address him as Uncle. I now believe that I was wrong and very likely Joseph was his Uncle and the only way that could be was if Mary was Ann's daughter or the daughter of one of Ann's siblings.

What think you my new found friends?

[simone]

Hi Tuxette.... yes that is a good idea how to prove it though
could do with tying up Edward jr as well to rule him out.

Have you tried the Cheshire Parish Registers project?

http://cgi.csc.liv.ac.uk/~cprdb/

may be some clue on there

Simone x

[Tuxette]

Thanks Simone. I shall visit the site immediately!

Helen

[Tuxette]

I've visited the Cheshire Registers Project (thanks for this) and confirmed what I already thought that Edward Jones, son of Edward (shipwright) and Mary, was baptised John the Baptist, Chester 1818. Of course we don't know his year of birth. Assuming he was born around that year too then he would have been 15/16/17 at the time Mary was born so my money's still on Ann!