military graves

[shirley]

I know some of you are experts in the military field, so hopefully you can answer my question
There is a military grave in Toxteth cemetery for William Loan, but according to the registers his father is also buried in this military grave. What I would like to know is whether this is possible as his father was a civilian and died in 1920. Was this allowed.
I am sorry I will not be able to acknowledge any replies at the moment my internet connection is down, and dear old Bt cannot do anything about it for a week. I am using library computer at the moment.
Thanks. Shirley

[dickiesam]

Hi,
According to the Commonwealth Graves Commission this is the death of William Loane:

LOANE, WILLIAM; Private; Service #: GS/11652; 9th (Queen's Royal) Lancers.
Date of death: 30/05/1915;
Age: Unknown;
Buried grave X. C.E. 395 in LIVERPOOL (TOXTETH PARK) CEMETERY.

I think that while the grave itself may have a military 'appearance' the cemetery is a 'public' one and you need to find out who paid for the grave. You will probably find it was his father or mother and so another family interment would be natural.

DS

[Katie]

The grave is most probably owned by the family and the Private WIlliam Loane probably died of war related injuries and as he was a casualty of World War One he was entitled to have a Commonwealth War Graves Headstone on the Grave.

[MaryA]

Allerton Cemetery Lodge charge for searches for burials, however I have found them very helpful if you already know the details of the grave. I would give them a ring and ask about the ownership.

TOXTETH PARK CEMETERY - Opened 1856
Smithdown Road
Liverpool
L15 2HD
Modern records held at Allerton Cemetery Lodge.
Telephone: 0151 233 3004
E-mail: cemeteriesandcrematoria {at} liverpool.gov.uk

(replace {at} with @ to use)

[Katie]

According to the Toxteth Park site all these are interred in that grave

Toxteth Park Burials
Search Results for grave 10/395

Surname Forename Age Rank Address Buried Folio Entry C/N Section Grave Class

MCQUEEN Margaret Ellen 13 years Scholar 47 Beresford Road 25 June 1911 5235 104346 C 10 395 352 CEM 9/1/21
BARTLING William Henry 2 years - 117 Beresford Road 18 January 1918 5605 111756 C 10 395 352 CEM 9/1/22
LOANE Archibald 69 years - 5 Lear Road 13 January 1920 5700 113658 C 10 395 352 CEM 9/1/22
LOANE William 32 years Soldier 117 Beresford Road Toxteth Park 5 June 1915 5482 109296 C 10 395 352 CEM 9/1/22

[MaryA]

Just trying to tie in how the children are related

St George's, Everton 12th August 1896
John McGregor McQueen 23 Bachelor Fireman 34 Upper High Street
Father John McQueen Printer
married
Jeannie Loane 20 Spinster 34 Upper High Street
Father Archibald Loane Fireman
Both signed their names
Witnesses Hugh Hughes and Annie Loane

Baptism at St George's Everton
Born 4th October, Baptised 27th October, 1897
Margaret Ellen McQueen - parents John and Jane - occupation Fireman
89 Abbott Street

[MaryA]

William H Bartling born Q2 1915 Toxteth Park 8b 267 - Mother's Maiden Name LOANE

Marriage of Victor H K Bartling - one of the other names on the page is Eliza Loane, Q3 1910 Toxteth P. 8b 302

[MaryA]

Thanks to Katie's find I hope this confirms that the grave wasn't a military one, but I'm pleased that William has been so commemorated.

[Katie]

I have some newspaper cuttings about the Commemoration of War Dead published when the Commision was set up. When I get time I'll post on the for Prosterity section.

Well back to my transcribing for World War One

[shirley]

Thanks so much each of you.The info about the other children in the grave was most welcome. Really appreciate everything
Thanks. Shirley.

[Stephen Nulty]

When a man died in the UK and was either in service or out of service but of service related causes, the family were given the option of having him buried local to where he died, such as a hospital, or of having the body returned home for burial. The burial would be paid for by the public purse - but remember that the War Graves Commission itself didn't exist in 1915 when this man was buried. If the family couldn't be contacted, he would be buried at public expense locally to where he died.

After the Commission was fully operational in the 1920's and embarked upon the mammoth task of fulfilling its charter obligation to commemorate each casualty in perpetuity, they will have written to the family/next of kin of each man who was already buried and offered them the option of having a Commission headstone erected.

In my experience, the majority of the families who had already erected a headstone left it at that, but those who had interred their relative and NOT put a stone on it would usually agree for the Commission headstone to be erected. Some graves have both stones, often (but not always) with the Commission headstone at the foot of the grave.

If the commission could not contact the family, then if a stone was already erected and the serviceman's name was included, they did nothing else. If no stone was erected or if the serviceman's name was not included, then they would arrange for a headstone to be be placed on the grave.

The commission would arrange with the authorities, either church or municipal, to pay a cost for the ongoing upkeep of the grave. At Prescot, they paid 2/6d per annum to my grandfather, Thomas Nulty, to maintain these graves, about 23 of them if I recall.

It is not uncommon to find other family members buried in the graves, though it is rare (but not unknown) for additional inscriptions to be placed on a Commission headstone.

Things have changed over the years, but in essence the Commission's charter now stipulates that they must commemorate the death in perpetuity. This does not mean they will maintain the grave, simply the commemoration, i.e. the headstone.

The commission visits each cemetery every three years and compiles a report on the state of the graves, with remedial action being taken if necessary.

[shirley]

To Steven mc nulty. Thank you for the info. That is very informative and very helpful.
Shirley