Killed in action 16 November 1918;- "We will remember t

[Mark Abbott]

I have the MM awarded to this chap for gallantry as a sniper in April 1918. Soldiers died show him as having been killed in action on 16th November 1918 and I have always assumed this to be a mistake.

I have today located his service papers on Ancestry and it clearly states in several places that he was kia on the 16th whilst serving with 423 Field Coy. A reference is given: C/1755/59131/18 and the entry is signed by a RE officer.

Christopher Hurst was from North Ashton; is there a war memorial?

Mark

[Kirsty]

Hi Mark,

By North Ashton do you mean Ashton-in-Makerfield? If so there is a war memorial. The memorial is located in the grounds of St. Thomas Church, Warrington Road, Ashton-in-Makerfield.

Hope this helps. Best Wishes, Kirsty

[Mark Abbott]

Hi Kirsty,

On his service papers, his home town is given as "North Ashton near Wigan", which is I believe now part of Ashton in Makerfield.

Thanks for the info on the memorial.

Regards

Mark

[Kirsty]

Hi Mark,

You're welcome. I've just been Google'ing and came up with the following image:


Best Wishes, Kirsty
P.S. I don't know if there are any further memorials in or around Ashton. There maybe some inside some of the churches. I do know the above memorial has a man with a VC but I don't have a list of names for the memorial and am not sure if one can be found on the web anywhere.

[Mark Abbott]

Kirsty,

Thanks for the post. His name does not appear on this memorial! I wonder if it was becuse he died after the end of the war?

Mark

[Kirsty]

Hmm...

Perhaps there is more than one memorial in Ashton or perhaps Cpl C Hurst is remembered on the Wigan memorial. I've just found the following list of war memorials on a Wigan Council web-site:

Wigan Council War Memorials
The council have responsibility of management of 12 War Memorials at the following locations:
Leigh Cenotaph, Church Street, Leigh.
Wigan Cenotaph, Wigan Parish Church gardens.
Tyldesley Cenotaph, Tyldesley Cemetery, Hough Lane, Tyldesley.
Atherton Cenotaph, Leigh Road, Atherton.
Standish Cenotaph, Wigan Road, Standish.
Golborne Cenotaph, Barn Lane, Golborne.
Ashton War Memorial, Wigan Road, Ashton.
Platt Bridge, War Memorial, Neville street.
Hindley Cenotaph, corner of Atherton Road & Liverpool Road.
Higher Ince, Smithy Green.
Ince Cenotaph, Ince Cemetery, Warrington Road, Wigan.

Kirsty

[Kirsty]

...I wonder if it was because he died after the end of the war?

Hi Mark,

I've just been having a think about this point and I don't think this would be the reason a soldier was missing from a memorial.

Cpl C Hurst died 16/11/1918. Although the Armistice was signed 11/11/1918, bringing about a cessation of hostilities, the war did not officially end till the peace treaty of Versailles was signed on the 28/06/1919.

I'm still thinking about this one. TTFN, Kirsty

P.S. A web-site you might find useful:
http://www.ukniwm.org.uk/
United Kingdom National Inventory of War Memorials

[Mark Abbott]

Hello Kirsty,

I have no doubt that you are right and this is of course why the Victory medal has the dates 1914-1919 on it.

I wonder where his name appears, or do we simply have an ommission from the memorial?.

His service papers clearly show that he lived in North Ashton with his brothers and sisters. The London Gazette entry for his MM shows his home town as " N Ashton".

DO you know if any of the local churchs have memorials inside?

This is a bit of a mystery all round!

Regards

Mark

[Mark Abbott]

I have the following information on Christopher:

He was born in 1898, the son of James and Mary Hurst. In his servicepapers, his parents are both recorded as having died by 1920 and he was survived by his siblings:

John Hurst 46 of 37 Garden Village, Spring Vale, Darwen.
William Hurst 38, of 62 Brocksteads Road, North Ashton
James Hurst 36, of 60 Brocksteads Road, North Ashton
Percy Hurst 28, of same address
Robert Hurst 26, of same address
Stanley Hurst 16, of same addres
Martha Birchall(?) of 16 Station Road, Garswood
Alice Worswick 41, of 112 Downall Green Road, Bryn
Mary Hurst 22 of60 Brocksteads Road

His next of kin in 1915 is given as his mother, so she must have died between then and 1920.

His grave is in Ath, Belgium.





Regards

Mark

My thanks to Tim Calvert for helping me to correctly record the members of his family.

[Tilly]

Hi

My understanding is that in many cases families applied to have their loved ones put on the town war memorials and so in some cases people don't appear because noone filled in the forms. Some people are only on their church memorials rather than the town memorials. again they were probably asked if they wished the name tyo be recorded.

Tilly

[Kirsty]

Hi Mark,

Been having a bit of a think and this is what I've come up with (taken from UKNIWM - backing up Tilly's post):

Why Are Some Names Omitted From Memorials?
All memorials from the beginning of time to the present, with the exception of the Cenotaph in London, have been erected by the local community as opposed to the government. When looking to see who should be included on the memorial there was no central body from which a list could be obtained. Instead, the collation of names for inclusion on the memorial was done by the committee responsible for the memorial's erection in any number of ways, namely:
- Door-to-door enquiries
- Leaflet posted through the letter box
- Announcement in the church
- An article in the or newspaper
- Word of mouth

This meant that names could very easily be omitted that might otherwise have been included. For example, if a family had already left the area their relative may not have been recorded. Alternatively, relatives did not always want names inscribed - where a loved one was posted as missing some families still held on to the hope that they would return. To have the person’s name placed on the memorial was an admittance that they were never going to return and that was just too painful for them.

Could they be Commemorated Elsewhere?
If you find a name missing it may be the case that they are commemorated on a different memorial. Individuals were often commemorated in more than one location, for example in their town of residence, on their military unit's memorial, workplace, local church or a sports club. So it is worth doing some research to see if there is an alternate place of commemoration.

It's very common for pre-WW1 churches to have memorials and I'd be surprised if at least one of the churches in Ashton doesn't or didn't have a memorial. I'm from Newton-le-Willows and I think every pre-WW1 church has or had a memorial (plus one outside the town hall). I think a bit of Ashton research could be the key here.

I'll have a Google and see if I can turn anything else up. Regards, Kirsty

[Kirsty]

Hi, Only me again...

There are three C of E churches in Ashton/Downall Green:
St. Thomas
St. Luke
Holy Trinity

I've worked out that St. Luke's definitely contains a roll of honour:
"To commemorate those men who gave their lives in the Great War, a Roll of Honour was dedicated in February 1921, containing seventy seven names. This is hung next to the Memorial Altar".

Roll of Honour Reads as follows:

St Luke's Mission Church Stubshaw Cross

Men who died for their country during the war of 1914-1918

James Henry Ashurst, Thomas Griffiths, Ernest Molyneux
James Bate, Griffith Griffiths, Thomas Oxby
Frederick Bate, Mathew Green, Thomas J Owen
George Beck, James Green, Jonathon Percival
William Beck, William Griffiths, Peter Ratcliffe
Robert Brown, Alfred Grundy, Samuel P Roberts
Patrick Carney, Patrick Hasset, John Sharples
Samuel Catterall, John Harrington, Thomas Stone
Nicholas Concannon, Thomas E Hughes, Alfred Skipworth
Harold Crosbie, Ephraim Hawkins, Granville A Sutton
Walter Corless, Thomas Hickson, Richard Somers
Charles Counnsell, Thomas Edward Hughes, William Shaw
Arthur Deluce, George Francis Johnson, John Parr Sadler
William A Deluce, Henry James Jennion, Thomas Francis Tattum
Peter Darbyshire, Lewis Ellis Jones, Harry Worthington
Henry Dixon, David Jones, Edward Williams
Richard Evans, William H Jones, Thomas Victor Williams
William French, Robert Jones, John Linby Williams
William H Fallon, Henry H Jones, James Wilson
Albert Fairhurst, Joseph Whittaker, Lloyd Jones
Daniel Finch, Frank Kenealy, John Thomas Wilkinson
Albert Finch, John Light, William Kenealy V.C
Richard Flasby, Ernest Lloyd, Harry Winstanley
John Garvin, John W Lyon

"A second roll of Honour was added after the Second World War, these containing twenty four names."

Wilfred Abbot, Leslie Markland
James Bates, William Nicholson
Cyril Boyers, Arthur Oxbury
John Bryon, Harold Pilling
Hugh Cuthbert, Craig John Price
Harry Cunliffe, James Shaw
Richard Frederick Davidson, John Smith
Leslie Frost, Sidney Thompson
James Hughes, James Valentine
Edward Jones, Leonard Whittle
William Kelly, Clifford Williams
Thomas Lowe, Thomas Wood

Kirsty

[Mark Abbott]

Tilly and Kirsty,

Thanks for your posts on this.

I will keep adding to this post as I discover more information.

Regards

Mark

[Mark Abbott]

I have been continuing with my research into the death of Cpl Hurst on the 16th November 1918.

I have a roll of all the men who were wounded whilst serving with 423 Field Company RE. One of these men was 141863 Sapper A A Broatch. His service papers have survived on Ancestry and they confrim that he was seriously wounded near Ath in Belgium on 16th November 1918 by the explosion of a German booby trap/mine. Another man, 216870 Spr W Hearne was also wounded in the same explosion and his papers which have also survived, confirm this.

I think we can safely assume that Cpl Hurst lost his life in this explosion and was buried in Ath near where he was killed.

It has taken me many years to prove the theory I had regarding Hurst's death. Thanks are due to Ancestry for this one!

A delighted Mark

[Kirsty]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for posting your up-date - I've enjoying following this story as it has unfolded.

I'm currently waiting for a delivery from the National Archives. I've ordered some photocopies from the war diary of the 126th field company of the RE. I'm hoping reading the relevant dates of the war diary will give me some insight into how my great-granddad died and what was taking place in his field company in the last days of his life.

TTFN, Kirsty

[Mark Abbott]

Hi Kirsty,

I do hope you find something on the photocopies. Some War Diaries are very detailed whilst other are to say the least, sparse in the information they contain.

I now have the WDs photograhed and copied on to a disc which makes storage so much easier.

Here is the page from the records that clinched this for me. Christoper Hurst was obviously killed by the same explosion. This is however not recorded in the WD. More research!! As far as I am aware no photo was published in the St Helens papers even when he won his MM; maybe I should try the Wigan ones? All I now need is his photo and the missing British War medal, Victory medal and memorial plaque to complete a fascinating story!!

Best wishes.

Mark

[Kirsty]

Hi Kirsty,

I do hope you find something on the photocopies. Some War Diaries are very detailed whilst other are to say the least, sparse in the information they contain.

I now have the WDs photographed and copied on to a disc which makes storage so much easier.

Here is the page from the records that clinched this for me. Christopher Hurst was obviously killed by the same explosion. This is however not recorded in the WD. More research!! As far as I am aware no photo was published in the St Helens papers even when he won his MM; maybe I should try the Wigan ones? All I now need is his photo and the missing British War medal, Victory medal and memorial plaque to complete a fascinating story!!

Best wishes.

Mark

Hi Mark,

I'd say it's definitely worth trying other local papers. If you've got the time it's certainly worth a look - I do hope you turn something up on Christopher Hurst.

I today received the photocopies of the war diary through the post. It looks like the entries were quite short and no-one is mentioned by name but I'm still finding them interesting. I'm in the process of trying to decipher the old hand-writing. I might have to start a new thread to ask for some help. I'll see how I get on with my magnifying glass .

Take care, Kirsty

[Mark Abbott]

Kirsty,

Remember to look for information on the Division that the unit served with. In your case the 21st Division.

Look at : http://www.1914-1918.net/re.htm

Happy Christmas

Mark

[Kirsty]

Thanks for the tip Mark .

I didn't realise when I left my above post about receiving the photocopies of the war diary but the National Archives sent me the wrong pages (the wrong year to be exact) .

I realized pretty quickly and was straight onto TNA. I'm still waiting for the correct pages/year. I'm hoping the correct pages turn up before long as I'm itching to see them.

Best Wishes, Kirsty

[Mark Abbott]

An interesting coincidence. Christopher Hurst was killed by the explosion of a German boobytrap on the 16.11.1918 and I have his single MM (the British War Medal & Victory Medal are missing). He won the MM at Mesplaux Farm in April 1918.

The subject of another of my posts, Charles Binns also won his MM at Mesplaux Farm, was wounded in the above explosion, and I have the MM but not his BWM and Victory Medal.

Of no real signifigance I suppose, but it is strange how the MMs to two men who fought together, were injured by the same explosion have ended up with me minus the BWM & Victory Medals. The search is on....