Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS

Family History in the Hundred of West Derby
It is currently 21:39:59 Wed 13/Dec/2017

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: 18:26:20 Sat 11/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: 16:52:28 Wed 19/Aug/2009
Posts: 2736
Location: Liverpool
Member #: 8038
John Hines was a Liverpool born Australian soldier of WW1 famous for his aggressive and unconventional approach to warfare. His wiki entry (link 1) gives a year of birth of 1873 in Liverpool. His military record (link 2) gives his mother's name as Dora and a sister is given as Mrs Mary Thompson of 23 Eldon Place Liverpool. I expected there to be more online about his Liverpool background such as a birth index, baptism (RC from an Irish background apparently) and some census records identifying him. I've had a quick search and I'm struggling to find anything for him. Anyone like to have a go at searching for any Liverpool records for him?

Link 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hines_(Australian_soldier)

Link 2: https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/br ... son/210102



Blue

_________________
Member No. 8038

NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18:51:53 Sat 11/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member

Joined: 09:39:11 Thu 20/Sep/2012
Posts: 610
Member #: 8208
Don't know about Dora, what is it short for. There is a John Hynes born 8 February 1874 baptised 23 March 1874 At St Joseph's Liverpool. Only mother's name given as Maria (Mary) No father named.
Using the GRO search, There are no HINES b in Liverpool in 1872 /3/4 with any first name. There was a Thomas Joseph in West Derby 1874 and Richard 1872 but none in 1873.
Hynes There are a Michael and a Patrick in 1873 in Liverpool. MMn Goodman and Flynn respectively. I cannot find one to match the baptism.
Not much help I'm afraid.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18:57:31 Sat 11/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member

Joined: 09:39:11 Thu 20/Sep/2012
Posts: 610
Member #: 8208
There is a John Hines on GRO Sept 1/4 Liverpool 1870 MMn Cain 8b pg 24

There was a John Hines in 1871 father William, mother Sarah baptised St Vincent de Paul. If you want any further info from that site just ask as you have done me many favours. :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20:28:45 Sat 11/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: 16:52:28 Wed 19/Aug/2009
Posts: 2736
Location: Liverpool
Member #: 8038
Thanks Lynne. Yes there are a few possibles around and the Dora and Mary Thompson connections haven't helped identify him yet. Given that he was in the habit of giving a younger age when he joined the army I've been considering earlier births too such as this one below where the father is called Bernard (don't know if the Barney comes from Bernard or because he was always having a barney!) and mother is Maria, the family later moved to Bootle:-

Name: Joannes Hyams
Birth Date: 12 May 1865
Baptism Date: 23 Jul 1865
Baptism Place: St Anthony's RC, Liverpool
Father: Bernardi Hynes
Mother: Maria Warren


Bernard Hines and Maria Warren married at St Peter's CE Liverpool on 22 Sep 1863:-

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=122430


Same family in 1881 (Bootle, Cumberland should be Bootle, Lancashire) :-

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27L-J2W1



Blue

_________________
Member No. 8038

NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21:13:12 Sat 11/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member

Joined: 11:19:45 Mon 17/Sep/2012
Posts: 3107
Member #: 8401
Haven't got to the bottom of it yet,

John Hines had 2 army numbers, 3792 & 2296, the second is on the attestation, 45th battalion. 8/5/1916. Mother, Dora Hines, bad handwriting, could be Doris, not sure.
John gave his age as, 36 years & 8 months.

There's a registration in 1881, West Derby, 8b 435, mothers maiden name, McGuinness.

1911 census,
23 Eldon Place, Liverpool
RG14, P22138

Thomas Henry 40 Liverpool
Mary Ann McGinnis 39 Liverpool
Thomas Henry 18
Kate Henry 16
Mary Henry 14
Liggie Henry 8
Sarah Henry 4
Edith Henry 11/12

Marriage
Thomas Henry/Mary Ann McGuinness, 1890, West Derby, 8b 3

Image

_________________
Bert


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21:44:44 Sat 11/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member

Joined: 11:19:45 Mon 17/Sep/2012
Posts: 3107
Member #: 8401
Mary Ann McGuinness birth reg, 1871 Liverpool 8b 97, mmn, Gallagher.

Marriages, Free BMD. 1864.
Breen Hugh Liverpool 8b 580
Gallagher Catharine Liverpool 8b 580
Gallagher Catherine Liverpool 8b 580
Hynes Patrick Liverpool 8b 580
McGuinness Catherine Liverpool 8b 580

I was looking for a McGuinness/Gallagher marriage and Patrick Hynes pops up?

_________________
Bert


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21:53:00 Sat 11/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member

Joined: 11:19:45 Mon 17/Sep/2012
Posts: 3107
Member #: 8401
Patricuem Hynes
Marriage Date:
27 Nov 1864
Marriage Place:
St Nicholas, Lancashire, England
Father:
Patricu Hynes
Spouse:
Catharinam Mcguinness

_________________
Bert


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21:53:26 Sat 11/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: 16:52:28 Wed 19/Aug/2009
Posts: 2736
Location: Liverpool
Member #: 8038
It's a tricky one Bert. My feeling is that he was born before 1873. There's different spellings of the surname that complicates matters. The mother's name is supposed to be Dora but I can't find it in the records. It may have been a pet name and her name might have been something else. The address in Eldon Place may not be helpful as families move around so much that the sister was probably elsewhere in 1911.


Blue

_________________
Member No. 8038

NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 00:18:53 Sun 12/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: 16:52:28 Wed 19/Aug/2009
Posts: 2736
Location: Liverpool
Member #: 8038
Possible family with a John and a Mary as siblings, father is Anthony Hinds from Westport, Mayo, Ireland, mother is Margaret Winters from Dublin, Ireland, living in Marlborough Street Liverpool in 1881:-

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27L-SQY1


Another with a John and Mary in 1881, parents are John Hynes and Jane Goodman:-

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27L-M7G1



Blue

_________________
Member No. 8038

NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08:29:44 Sun 12/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member

Joined: 11:19:45 Mon 17/Sep/2012
Posts: 3107
Member #: 8401
It is tricky, Blue.

On his first joining up in 1915, given age 28 years, born approx. 1887. I feel it would take some doing knocking 14 years off if he was born 1873 or prior.

On his second enlistment, 36 years & 8 months, birth approx., 1880, probably has more chance of getting away with it, if he was born 1873 ish.

I know it could be coincidence, a John Hines registered 1881 with a mmn, McGuinness and then at the given address, 23 Eldon Place, we have a Mary Ann McGuinness Henry.

Strange.

_________________
Bert


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12:28:21 Sun 12/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: 16:52:28 Wed 19/Aug/2009
Posts: 2736
Location: Liverpool
Member #: 8038
Another link to view his 52 page Australian Army record:-

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Gallery151/dist/JGalleryViewer.aspx?B=5451627&S=1&N=52&R=0#/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=5451627&T=P&S=1


Blue

_________________
Member No. 8038

NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 15:04:38 Sun 12/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: 16:52:28 Wed 19/Aug/2009
Posts: 2736
Location: Liverpool
Member #: 8038
I've got a list that includes 3 illegitimate births perhaps one of those births could be right and might explain why this is so difficult? Here are my notes for births around 1873:-

1865 John Hines Q1 Warren Liverpool, Bernard & Maria, b 12 May 1865 RC bap: 23 Jul 1865 St Ant
1867 John Hynes Q4 Flynn Liverpool, John Hines & Ann Flynn
186? John Hinds Q? Winters Liverpool, Anthony & Margaret
1869 John Hynes Q1 Murphy Liverpool, John Hynes & Eliza Murphy, Eliz & co 1881 Athol Street
1870 John Hynes Q3 Goodwin/Goodman Liverpool, John and Jane
1870 John Hines Q3 Cain Liverpool, John Hines & Rachel Cain, d 1871?
1871 John Hinds Q2 Callaghan Liverpool, William Hinds & Sarah Callaghan, RC bap: SVP, not on 1881
1874 John Hinds Q1 - Liverpool, single mother: Mary or Maria, b 8 Feb 1874 RC bap: 23 Mar 1874 St Jos
1874 John Hinds Q3 - West Derby
1877 John Hynes Q3 - Liverpool, single mother: Sarah, died 9 Aug 1878 aged 1 year at Liverpool Workhouse
1879 John Hines Q1 Mulholland Liverpool


Blue

_________________
Member No. 8038

NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM


Last edited by Blue70 on 21:33:36 Sat 18/Nov/2017, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18:11:06 Sun 12/Nov/2017 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 21:29:54 Thu 24/Mar/2005
Posts: 12958
Location: Kirkby
Member #: 6532
Over on the Facebook Group there is a lady - Kath Green Merryweather who has posted the following, so I'm copying just in case there is any connection.

WW1 - 2nd Boarder Regiment -Regiment number 3115

My gt grandfather Robert Hines/Hind was in the First World War stationed at Lord Derby's Park, Liverpool, he was in the 4th Liverpool Pals. (the 20th Battalion Kings (Liverpool Regiment) who were part of the 89th Brigade, 30th Division, fighting on the Western front in Russia, serving at the garrison in Russia and in India. After the war Robert worked in the Iron Foundry at Ellesmere Port. Hope this information might 'ring some bells' with someone.

_________________
MaryA
Our Facebook Page
Names - Lunt, Hall, Kent, Ayre, Forshaw, Parle, Lawrenson, Longford, Ennis, Bayley, Russell, Longworth, Baile
Any census info in this post is Crown Copyright, from National Archives


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 01:01:55 Sat 18/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member

Joined: 09:10:17 Mon 12/Dec/2016
Posts: 46
Location: Queensland, Australia
Member #: 9019
Hi Blue,
I took a particular interest in your post as my grt grt aunt Sarah Goddard married John Vesey Hine in NSW, australia. This "Hine" family was Irish.

I have been searching through Australian records for anything that might hold a clue to the origins of "John Hines".
Upon reading his war service record from front to back, there are a few points to note. One is the age discrepancy, which I have disregarded. Secondly, residential address in 1916, and his listed occupation. His service record makes for some interesting reading to say the least.
I have located an article in Australian papers, dated 1938 about John "Barney" Hines formerly of the AIF.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article101052440

I think a bit of poetic licence may be involved, when I compare the article, with his actual service record.

_________________
Sharene

9019

Boyle, Connelly, Cook, Cookson, Downey, Goddard, Hampson, Johnson, Lane, Martin, Mawdsley, Mitchell, Ottoway, Rees, Spencer, Sullivan, Turner, Wilson, Williams.
Emigrants to Australia with the Military, or Navy, or early convicts.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02:26:44 Sat 18/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member

Joined: 09:10:17 Mon 12/Dec/2016
Posts: 46
Location: Queensland, Australia
Member #: 9019
a further article including a photo in 23rd April 1950.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article167911946

_________________
Sharene

9019

Boyle, Connelly, Cook, Cookson, Downey, Goddard, Hampson, Johnson, Lane, Martin, Mawdsley, Mitchell, Ottoway, Rees, Spencer, Sullivan, Turner, Wilson, Williams.
Emigrants to Australia with the Military, or Navy, or early convicts.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02:41:03 Sat 18/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member

Joined: 09:10:17 Mon 12/Dec/2016
Posts: 46
Location: Queensland, Australia
Member #: 9019
Here is a much earlier article.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article234736974

_________________
Sharene

9019

Boyle, Connelly, Cook, Cookson, Downey, Goddard, Hampson, Johnson, Lane, Martin, Mawdsley, Mitchell, Ottoway, Rees, Spencer, Sullivan, Turner, Wilson, Williams.
Emigrants to Australia with the Military, or Navy, or early convicts.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03:57:45 Sat 18/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member

Joined: 09:10:17 Mon 12/Dec/2016
Posts: 46
Location: Queensland, Australia
Member #: 9019
I have continued searching newspapers in Australia. I have come across many court reports, and offences under the name John Hines. Always about the right age.
Have now located a prison record including photograph, which I believe to be the same man.
From the physical description of scars, these could well be the shrapnell wounds he received on active service. Date of birth given as 17/03/188?

Here is a link for you to take a look.

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/index_im ... 105000147r

_________________
Sharene

9019

Boyle, Connelly, Cook, Cookson, Downey, Goddard, Hampson, Johnson, Lane, Martin, Mawdsley, Mitchell, Ottoway, Rees, Spencer, Sullivan, Turner, Wilson, Williams.
Emigrants to Australia with the Military, or Navy, or early convicts.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 07:16:15 Sat 18/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member

Joined: 11:19:45 Mon 17/Sep/2012
Posts: 3107
Member #: 8401
Good finds, Sharene,

The date looks like 1884, a Liverpool Irishman born St Patrick's Day.

I wonder, still keeping up the pretence?

_________________
Bert


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21:46:39 Sat 18/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: 16:52:28 Wed 19/Aug/2009
Posts: 2736
Location: Liverpool
Member #: 8038
I'm looking into this one again. I've been looking at workhouse and industrial school records thinking that he might have come from a difficult background with admissions to various institutions growing up. He was definitely not the one born in 1877 on my list this child died in 1878 the mother Sarah had two illegitimate children James and John, James went to Kirkdale Industrial school, Sarah and John were in the workhouse. Addresses were off Scotland Road same part of Liverpool as Eldon Place but this John died as a baby. My interest initially was in James in the industrial school as I was exploring the possibility that John might be recorded under a different first name ie James John Hines in full might prefer to use John rather than James as a first name.


Blue

_________________
Member No. 8038

NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20:03:36 Mon 20/Nov/2017 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: 16:52:28 Wed 19/Aug/2009
Posts: 2736
Location: Liverpool
Member #: 8038
An earlier prison record with a different date of birth:-

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/index_im ... 091000177r


Blue

_________________
Member No. 8038

NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group